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Old March 21st   #1
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Car SHow Judging

OK guys, I've been showing the white car since 03 after it's reconstruction. I've also judged a few shows (OK 2) Here are a few things I've learned:

I may use a few of you as examples it's not picking it's pointing out.

1) First it's a game. It's about hiding the weakness and emphasizing the strengths. It's about selling your product to the judges. In the short 5 minutes they spend walking around your vehicle they have to see the ammount of care and work that you put into it. The display and brag book are important because it shows the care and effort. JayMack, I realize the ammount of effort it takes to bag the surburban but sitting there without any additional information it looks like a subruban that has had the wheels changed.

2) Just about every show with walkaround judging looks at 4 areas (engine, body, chassis and interior (include the trunk/bed). Normally judges are not allowed to open a door/trunk/hood to judge. SO if they can't see it it gets scored as a zero. If your's trunk isn't so hot, one of my faults until I got the trunk it it's better to get is scored as a 1 or 2 than a zero A show should use the same set of judges on a particular class or the whole show if it's a top 10. People should be assigned to an area to assure consistency. If the judges are consistent then it's as fair as it can be. For instance if I'm judging interior and I get it set in my mind the severity of various things I see. If the interior has a couple of blades of grass and the show is on a grass field that wouldn't be a deduction. If it looks like the pine strarw in my back yard I'll take off several points but the important thing is that he judge be consistent. If they deduct for one point for a rip in the seat then they should do that for all classes. The best shows have two judges for each area and they have to concur.To get into exactly what they are looking for you have to know your car/class

3) Know your car/class. AACA defines modified as having 3 or more items that were not stock. A car with 3 or less modifications can be entered in an original category but that may not be best thing to do. When they are judging an original category they are looking to see if the vehicle was "as it left the factory". In original categories modifications are deductions. In modified categories they are rated on the originality of the modification. But it all goes back to how how well the vehicle was maintained. A really cool paint job that's dirty and full of swirl marks won't beat a plain white that itsn't

4) With top 10 or top 25 as long as they are consistent everything should shake out. but the addvantage is usually to the very wild or perfect restoration.

5) Judges won't tell you what they gave your car as a score because in the end it's subjective to the individual judge. One may think a paint chip is a 1 point deduction another may think it's a 2 (again consistency). However they WILL tell you areas on your car they deducted for. Ask them "What do I need to do to make my car show better or what areas do I need to improve?" That's how you learn what to do next time.

In the end you pays your monies and you takes your chances if nothing else you get a microfiber towell or funnel as a door prize to make the trip worhtwhile.

I do prefer shows with classes just to share the wealth, it's tough putting a plain white regal against a red 02 camaro. But trophies cost $$'s and for a fund rasing show they have to consider that. And if you have classes you're bound to have trophies left over. In that respect most shows could do a smiple age based class and it would be sort of fair. It takes a LOT more work get a older car show worthy just because as things get older they fall apart (that doesn't apply just to cars BTW) and age should be factored into the judges consideration.

That's my rant. it's free, take it for what it's worth.
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Old March 21st   #2
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I wouldn't call that a rant--I think that's some good info from someone who's been to some major events and has been on the show circuit a while. Thank you for the post. I think this will be a very good and useful discussion.
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Old March 21st   #3
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Interesting related post:
http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com/sh...3&postcount=34
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Old March 21st   #4
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Good post.

The things I don't really agree with are when a show has limited classes. Then you could get a stock showroom car going against a late model mild custom. The showroom car may be flawless, but they don't take into consideration that it SHOULD be flawless. The modified car has time, money, and sweat in it. They should be judged differently. This is not always the case. Many shows I've seen around here just ask friends and such if they want to judge...many don't really have good experience in judging and when the sheet says to rank the following from 1-10, well the showroom new car gets 10's across the board....
/rant off
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Old March 21st   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aminga


3) Know your car/class. AACA defines modified as having 3 or more items that were not stock. A car with 3 or less modifications can be entered in an original category but that may not be best thing to do. When they are judging an original category they are looking to see if the vehicle was "as it left the factory". In original categories modifications are deductions. In modified categories they are rated on the originality of the modification.



That's my rant. it's free, take it for what it's worth.

Good well thought out rant!
What determands a 'modifacation'
OE parts or what the car started out life as?
on of mine cars uses OE parts but.................
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Old March 21st   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook
Good well thought out rant!
What determands a 'modifacation'
OE parts or what the car started out life as?
on of mine cars uses OE parts but.................
Putting something that wasn't on the car originally. Remember one of the items under judgment is how well the car is maintained. It also depends on the show. At a councours type event they check to make sure the car has all the chalk marks it should (kinda rediculous)

Swapping one 350 for another isn't a mod. Swapping a 350 Carb for a 350 FI probably is. Putting a big block in a Geo Metro is definatly a mod even if you use a GM block.

Here's what I count as mods on the regal.

Eibach Springs, Bilstein shocks (a mod it alters the rake and stance of the car
Polishing OEM whell spokes not a mod (could be in some shows)
Chroming the OEM turbo shield (and yes those are the original ones on the car and radiator hold down) I count it as a mod.Some may not.
All the added chrome under the hood is a mod including the intake system.
Billet pullies mod
new alt not a mod
chrome case for new alt mod.
New Hood Liner (mod)
Trunk Kit (mod)
Poly bushings not a mod

If you have a question about what class ask the committee.


The AACA Show in May they are the most helpful and I'm sure they'd like to have everyone show up.
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Old March 21st   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSFAST
Good post.

The things I don't really agree with are when a show has limited classes. Then you could get a stock showroom car going against a late model mild custom. The showroom car may be flawless, but they don't take into consideration that it SHOULD be flawless. The modified car has time, money, and sweat in it. They should be judged differently. This is not always the case. Many shows I've seen around here just ask friends and such if they want to judge...many don't really have good experience in judging and when the sheet says to rank the following from 1-10, well the showroom new car gets 10's across the board....
/rant off
Classing a show is almost a tough as judging it, if not tougher. I agree that stock and custom cars need to be judged differently. Hence the "concours" type car shows for only stock cars.

This post got me thinking. Should the amount of time, blood, sweat and tears in a car be a factor in judging a car? Or should the final result of the work be the only factor?
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Old March 21st   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aminga
Poly bushings not a mod
Hmm...this one is interesting. Are they officially not a mod or is this just your opinion on them? I would think they would be considered a mod since other suspension changes (springs and shocks) are a mod. But the springs and shocks you have modify the look of the car, so it's not really the same deal.
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Old March 21st   #9
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Another topic related post:
http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com/sh...1&postcount=36
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Old March 21st   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samir
This post got me thinking. Should the amount of time, blood, sweat and tears in a car be a factor in judging a car? Or should the final result of the work be the only factor?
I don't thing so, before you all beat me with a wet noodle,
If I do a car for a show and Tom ( 17 year old son) does
steps up to the plate and does his best work ever,and pulls
off a quality car
Who do you think really spent more time, blood, sweat and tears ?
Probley him,

should the fact that a car was built by a first timer be a factior
in the judging?
I don't .
The car should be judged on it's self, not on who build it.
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Old March 21st   #11
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i have been asked on occasion to help judge a show and have refused because i admit i could not help but be biased towards muscle cars. i walk a lot of salvage yards hunting old stuff for cars in barns to shoot and i walk rite past many tuner cars that some of you younger kids drool over and never give them a second look. sorry
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Old March 21st   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runningbwdog
I prefer going to shows that have defined classes.
Mike

That is my outlook on things as well. Just a little different. I think that we should have different classes\different judges. Example: Muscle Car Class: Hoss429(he has experience in this class) MiniTruck Class:Nevr2loS10(experienced in what it takes to make a Show Truck) Import Class:OPEY, Larry, Ben, Jim Sandy, anyone experienced in making an accual SHOW import car European Class:Matt Bounds(Prez of H20, been doing the euro thing for a long time) etc....

Do you see where I am going with this? It is not that I think the judging is bias toward a certain Jonra, although at most shows it is, only saying that we need experienced people judging the cars that they are experienced in. You can not have a Die Hard Mustang, Camaro, Chevelle, etc... lover judging Larry's Car vs The Silver Chevelle talked about a few threads up above. Not saying that they would not appreciate both cars, just saying that they would be more apt to choose the Chevelle. Due to the fact that they have probably done the restoration before, and know exactly what it intells. I think there should be certain judges for certain classes. Like the First ATO show, Soon, Richard, Arthur(i think), and a few other import guys judged that show. Although it was geared more toward imports, they did a great job judging that cause they knew exactly what it took to make those Civics, Integras, Eclipse, Etc.... look\Drive the way they did. but that is just my $0.02
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Old March 21st   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samir

This post got me thinking. Should the amount of time, blood, sweat and tears in a car be a factor in judging a car? Or should the final result of the work be the only factor?
would you be proud of a store bought winner. drag out the boyd or foose car now and then. last years pulaski show had an unbelievable 55 ford crown vic . no doubt a big bucks car . but it didnt make my (WOW) list
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Old March 21st   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSFAST
Good post.

The things I don't really agree with are when a show has limited classes. Then you could get a stock showroom car going against a late model mild custom. The showroom car may be flawless, but they don't take into consideration that it SHOULD be flawless. The modified car has time, money, and sweat in it. They should be judged differently. This is not always the case. Many shows I've seen around here just ask friends and such if they want to judge...many don't really have good experience in judging and when the sheet says to rank the following from 1-10, well the showroom new car gets 10's across the board....
/rant off
I think a good judge does consider that. Faced with a limited ammount of trophy money simple age classes make sense. The event can structure the judging by giving originality points and or innivation poitns.

But remember the brag book. You can use that If the finish isn't perfect then you put in their original factor paint. Use that to tell the story and convey the work/enthusasim.
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Old March 21st   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samir
Hmm...this one is interesting. Are they officially not a mod or is this just your opinion on them? I would think they would be considered a mod since other suspension changes (springs and shocks) are a mod. But the springs and shocks you have modify the look of the car, so it's not really the same deal.
Everything here is My opinion, nothing else. But it's better version of an OEM part so it's not a mod that doesn't substantially change looks / function.

In Reality most couldn't tell an aftermarket bushing from a stock.
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Old March 21st   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOSS429
would you be proud of a store bought winner. drag out the boyd or foose car now and then. last years pulaski show had an unbelievable 55 ford crown vic . no doubt a big bucks car . but it didnt make my (WOW) list
I do appreciate the ammount of work that goes into a foose car. The man truly has a tallent for doing extreme modifications to cars and making it look like it came that way from the factory. His work is WOW and understated at the same time.

So are the judging the work done by the owner or a professional restorer/customizer. Realize we can't do everything ourselves.

In that respect What about all of the kits now. Body Kits, Lambo hinge kits. Someone else has put most of the work/engineering into making that happen

FWIW the Trunk kit in my car was done by a professional embroider however it is the prototype. I was the first person to ever ask for a kit with the Tri-shield. Now others can get one because I ponied up the $'s for the prototype.
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Old March 22nd   #17
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so what your telling me is that when you look at a bone stock 60 model camaro and a suburban laid on the ground you see more mods done to the camaro?...I think not...but what I am talking about is a predetermined bias by some judges at shows in the area where anything new model has no chance because the "old school car guys" who are judging do not know much of anything about where the custom world is going therefore they dont understand and pretty much just overlook the in depth work it takes to do mods such as air ride suspension, suicide doors, shaving outer body handles, and fiberglass interior work
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Old March 22nd   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevr2loS10
so what your telling me is that when you look at a bone stock 60 model camaro and a suburban laid on the ground you see more mods done to the camaro?...I think not...but what I am talking about is a predetermined bias by some judges at shows in the area where anything new model has no chance because the "old school car guys" who are judging do not know much of anything about where the custom world is going therefore they dont understand and pretty much just overlook the in depth work it takes to do mods such as air ride suspension, suicide doors, shaving outer body handles, and fiberglass interior work

you have a point,
but give us
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevr2loS10
"old school car guys"
a chance
most of us need to be educated to the new stuff,
becides
car guys are car guys
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Old March 22nd   #19
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samir please close one of these threads that are about the same topics ( judging shows)
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Old March 22nd   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevr2loS10
so what your telling me is that when you look at a bone stock 60 model camaro and a suburban laid on the ground you see more mods done to the camaro?...I think not...but what I am talking about is a predetermined bias by some judges at shows in the area where anything new model has no chance because the "old school car guys" who are judging do not know much of anything about where the custom world is going therefore they dont understand and pretty much just overlook the in depth work it takes to do mods such as air ride suspension, suicide doors, shaving outer body handles, and fiberglass interior work
No, What I'm saying is that 2 cars at a show. I'll use JayMack's Burb and the Silver Chevelle. because they're fresh in my mind. The chevelle looks stock, hell it IS stock, the burb looks stock with wheels, door handels, and a K&N (Jay that's all I can remember on mods.

Advantage on ammount of work to Jay.

But the Chevelle owner has documented ALL he has done to the car in a simple photo alblum in the trunk. Where you can see that the car was stripped to the frame and restored from the ground up and every part rebuilt.

Advantage in work and effort to the chevelle.

What I'm saying is that if you want people to see the ammount of work and enthusaisum you have for your truck/car don't just show up with a bunch of your club members and expect them to know and give respect. Document the work. Put it out on display. Sell your product to the customer (judges) Respect is earned not given.

Most judges aren't biased against a particular group of cars they just don't know. Educate them and you will do better afterall Car Guys are Car Guys, otherwise Barry Meguiar wouldn't rcognizing the tuner market in his business and shows.

If I did better on educating I would have to answer the question "So A GN has is faster right?" all the time.
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